mountainz.co.nz

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[whitecaps]

Yup!

Bicycle Day
Three days later, April 19, 1943, Hofmann performed a self-experiment to determine the true effects of LSD, intentionally ingesting 250 micrograms of the substance, an amount he predicted to be a threshold dose (an actual threshold dose is 20 micrograms).[7] Less than an hour later, Hofmann experienced sudden and intense changes in perception. He asked his laboratory assistant to escort him home, and as use of vehicles was prohibited because of wartime restrictions, they had to make the journey on a bicycle. On the way, Hofmann’s condition rapidly deteriorated as he struggled with feelings of anxiety, alternatingly believing the next-door neighbor was a malevolent witch, that he was going insane, and the LSD had poisoned him. When the house doctor arrived, however, he could detect no physical abnormalities, save for a pair of incredibly dilated pupils. Hofmann was reassured, and soon his terror began to give way to a sense of good fortune and enjoyment, as he later wrote ...

... little by little I could begin to enjoy the unprecedented colors and plays of shapes that persisted behind my closed eyes. Kaleidoscopic, fantastic images surged in on me, alternating, variegated, opening and then closing themselves in circles and spirals, exploding in colored fountains, rearranging and hybridizing themselves in constant flux ...

The events of the first LSD trip, now known as “Bicycle Day”, after the bicycle ride home, proved to Hofmann that he had indeed made a significant discovery. A psychoactive substance with extraordinary potency, capable of causing paradigm shifts of consciousness in incredibly low doses, Hofmann foresaw the drug as a powerful psychiatric tool; because of its intense and introspective nature, he couldn’t imagine anyone using it recreationally.[8]

[Francesca]

[whitecaps]

Damn physio, chiropractoring osteopathic witch doctors!

[Francesca]

Whitecaps, ACC don't just deal with injury recovery.

'Treatment injury' by ACC's definition is: "Injury received as a result of medical treatment."

So the term 'treatment injury' covers all kinds of things, such as: surgeons leaving an instrument inside a patient; doctors prescribing the wrong drug, leading to adverse affects; poor post-op care resulting in death.....

You can even read actual cases of these type of awful incidents (treatment injury claims) on ACC's website.

And as I said, ACC's own stats show that there has been a 700% increase in these type of claims over a ten year period......(you can find those stats on ACC's website too).

Yes, doctors help a lot of people, and I am sincerely glad they were able to help your loved one.

But I choose not to overlook the fact that doctors harm a lot of people too. Hence, I prefer to get sleeping drug advice from those who have actually tried them, and have no reason to gloss over potential side effects.
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[craigm]

[jase]

Hiya Cesca

Thought I would give my opinion here....

I take sleeping tablets when snow camping or the night before a climb. I also take a sleeping tablet to sleep between my night shifts.

As you also know, I certainly research most things before having a crack at them, and associate with many doctors, medico's and para-professionals within my field of employ.

I use Temaze. Temaze is another Benzodiazepine, along with Valium (diazepam), Flunitrazepam, Ativan and so forth.

I must say here, that not all these sedatives are designed for sleeping. Some are short acting (Ativan) and used for anxiety attacks, others, like Valium, have approx. 16hr half life, in which they act for a long time, hence causing the 'hangover' effect. Do not use these for sleeping...they will make you feel yukky, and are not indicated to treat insomnia in the first place.

The one I used is Temaze, or Temazepam. It has a half life of approximately 4 hrs, and does not give me a hang over in the morning.

They are very safe, have a solid reputation, and work well for me. They are not addictive either, like Valium.

Unfortunately they skip the brain wave cycles responsible for 'nice' sleep. Having said that though, they still make me sleep, and I do wake with a sense of having slept in the morning.

I have tried many herbal remedies. Some work, but have also given me many hangovers, and are inconsistent.

I have also tried "Rescue Remedy", which is homeopathic. I used this during periods of anxiety, and found that it helped me sleep.

Oh yeah, I don't believe in the word placebo.

Hope this helps Cesca. I am off to bed, I have had the worst cold/manflu over the past four days....yuk. Man-up I hear!! lol.

Ps. Don't use Diamox to sleep with.

[whitecaps]

Francesca I was just having a wind up. Most of my friends swear by their osteos and I have used some excellent physio's before that have really helped rehabilitate me after injury. The comment was kind of tongue in cheek as I have met doctors before who have told me of their firm belief that physio's and osteos are quacks. Some in medical science need to move their opinion along and look seriously at these newer treatments which so many have benefitted from.

700% increase crikey is it the ACC system (ship parents in, ship them out mentality) or medical science. Wonder if any other stats show correlations that can point to a reason why, do they discuss why? Had a quick look at the site but can't find it.

Craigm good point.

Jase fantastic post on the subject; a nurse told me to stay away from benzo's think it was because they can be addictive (have you heard this?) and suggested non benzo sleeping pills but if they work for you cool. I found valium very nice on overnight buses on terrible roads in Africa.

I was prescribed Diamox specifically to help me sleep above 4500m in Nepal by a doctor who had spent loads of time at high altitude and was giving lectures to climbers and trekkers in one of the mountain villages. It worked like a switch for me 3 nights with no sleep then Diamox and finally sleep. It did not work for my partner however so what gives??? Actually my partner remembers being told by the Doc not to take valium at altitude as it will relax your breathing too much hindering sleep (breathing takes quite a lot of effort up there). So I was wrong suggesting take valium at altitude in a previous post.

My mate gave me some of his home brew coffee liquor last night and I can attest to the fact that, that will do nothing for you, didn't sleep a wink!

[Curtis]

I had a friend with the same problem, and talked about it with her and did some reading and lot of it is about the mind not being able to shut down. Hence you can walk in for 12 hours and be physicaly tired but your mind is still racing.

I introduced her to meditation through yoga......the rest is history.

thats my 2cents, it is amazing, for not only sleep but to start a day with a 6am yoga sesh, with a mega positive outlook going on the rest of the day. I could have the worst job in the world on the ambulance but being able to be centred helps me ten fold

[Francesca]

Jase - I was hoping you would comment, thanks muchly for your input. Sorry to hear about the manflu...take it easy. xox

[jase]

Hiya Whitecaps

I do know of Diamox for high altitude sleeping - they are still uncertain of the real mechanism of action for the CNS depression, but it seems to work at altitude. Considering the swag of indications for this drug (epilepsy, congestive heart failure, glaucoma to name a few), I would be hesitant to take them when not at altitude - fluid shifts, diarrhoea and polyuria (having to pee heaps - which kinda defeats the purpose of wanting to sleep).

Valium is addictive, absolutely. They are great sedatives, but do cause physiological addiction if not careful. Temaze is far more safe, and prescribed for insomnia.

Cesca

Unless you are experiencing those signs and/or symptoms that include fast heart, fast breathing, feeling of anxiety (perhaps), alert++, then I doubt you are in sympathetic dominance. Humans live in parasympathetic dominance unless otherwise recruited for exercise/fight/flight.

I would say it is your mind playing games. being nervous or excited is not really sympathetic dominance, but it can keep you awake.

Sometimes it is not possible to tick all the boxes when you're trying to sleep. Yes, I do yoga (when I have the time - lol), yes I listen to music through my iPod, yes i make sure I have a full stomach of food, yes I ensure I am hydrated, yes I am physically exhausted, yes I try to focus on my breathing...but sometimes....you just can't tick them all off.

A safe medicated sleep may just be the balance at that point in time.

Zzzzz.

[Mal Haskins]

The use of diamox (Acetazolamide) at altitude works for sleeping by the fact that it increases your respiration rate - the side effects of increased urine output normally abates after 3 days of using the drug. The increased respiration rate stops the cheyne stokes breathing patterns that develop and help you to get to sleep and stay asleep

Making use of Diamox by taking 125mg morning and night has been shown to help increase peoples aclimatizaton rates/ability and doesn't effect the use of Diamox for AMS. This seems to be effective above 3500m.

However I can't see how Diamox would be a good drug to help you sleep in the NZ hills unless you have a VERY bad succeptability for AMS.

High Altitude is basically defined as above 2500m and people have been known to get AMS as low as 2000m. Most climbers who fly into Plateau / Pioneer / Tas Saddle etc tend to have a poorer first night sleep. Whether this is due to nerves / excitement or altitude it hard to quantify. I have not seen or heard of anybody using Diamox here in NZ.
_________________
Mal Haskins
www.verticalresources.org

Life's a rock
go climb it

[DoM]

What Jase forgot to mention tho is that Temaze is prescription only as far as I know (Well in Sydney anyway). But for anyone still interested:
http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcmed.nsf/pages/afctemaz/$File/afctemaz.pdf

Mal, I know one friend in Victoria who has quite severe AMS and gets sick in OZ below 2000m!!!! He even had to be evac'd off a mountain once overseas and this was only a bit over 2000m but he is a severe case as far as I know.


And Cesca
I was making the same point but it seems these guys made it a bit clearer re what I called the anxiety thing. Anyway best of luck. Didn't realise it was such a widespread thing as Ben normally falls asleep while I am still melting snow. Lucky bugger!

[whitecaps]

I never said you should take Diamox when not at altitude. It's not really a drug that one should use in NZ as I said in an earlier post on this thread. Maybe if you are really susceptible to AMS and thought it might work on Cook but like Mal never heard of anyone contemplating that. Diamox really did help me sleep at 4500m I was desperate.

Although maybe off topic it is interesting however I got a lot of conflicting advice when and when not to use it while in Nepal. Some NZers I met took it preventatively 6 weeks before even going to Nepal.

I worry that that approach reduces your bodies ability to naturally acclimatise which I think should be the goal of acclimatisation. A woman there took it once arriving in Nepal did Island Peak on it and then immediately stopped it. A day later she was choppered out with a cerebral edemia. Doc's said she should have stayed on it or stopped it early and acclimatised naturally.

I have used meditation to wind down the mind before sleeping with great results mainly the night before sitting exams.